First off, no, my primary claim is that the vocation God calls each person to is the most meaningful and important thing they could possibly do with their life, whether or not that involves raising children. My secondary opinion that we should shut our mouths and not judge the way God calls others is downstream of that first opinion and entirely dependent on it.
Second off, ok, I think a large part of our disagreement is that you and I clearly have vastly different life experiences. I grew up on the same family farm my great-greats built when they came over from Germany, with my parents as well as some extended family. Even since leaving the family farm, I’ve still lived my whole life in either very small towns (<2k people) or in small cities with the sort of neighborhoods where you regularly bump into friends and acquaintances. I continue to live less than 30 minutes by car from the farm. On any given day I can go for a walk or run errands and bump into my sister, or a friend from church, or my sister’s friend (whom I also know, because of course I do) or (this literally happened on Tuesday) my son’s best friend’s dad — whom I’ve known since we were in preschool together — oh and his dad went to high school with my mom.
I assure you: people absolutely care what everyone else thinks of them. Oh, do they care. You can call it ridiculous all you like, but it is what it is. Certainly one can take it to extremes, probably caused by mental health problems (on both ends of the spectrum! a profound lack of concern about what anyone else thinks of you can also be a sign of a problem). Mostly, though, I think “caring deeply what folks think of you” is just a basic human drive. We have to live with each other for decades, and “position in the community” is important.
In contexts like this, I have known otherwise perfectly mentally stable women who burst into tears when the however-many-th “just one church lady giving an opinion just one time” asks when she’s having children “because it’s the most important thing a woman can do” and she’s been trying to conceive for however many years and no children are forthcoming and she feels devalued in the eyes of the however-many-th “just one person” she is going to spend the next 40 years of her life sitting a pew over from.
And finally, yes, of course most traditional communities revolve around raising children, but the healthy ones were (and are!) pretty good at recognizing that a lot of people support that goal beyond the physical parents, and are good at valuing those contributions. Just for an easy example, I am absolutely positive that my parish community values our celibate priest just as much as we value parents, and that similar parish communities have been highly valuing celibate monks and nuns for approximately the last two millennia. As another example, the “maiden aunt” or “bachelor uncle” who never married but instead stayed on working the family farm was a fixture of years gone by. I grew up with stories of my mom’s “uncle Raymond” (her father’s mother’s brother) who did exactly this and was very much valued.
I actually think the weird modern quirk (in more conservative circles at least) is how we’re more likely to ignore the value of the Uncle Raymonds of the world because we’re so busy focusing on the nuclear family. I’m sure mean church ladies sniping cattily about someone never getting married existed then as now, but I don’t think anyone would ever have had a conversation over pints at the pub or whatever about how people like Raymond weren’t really doing the most important work (that would have been bold—he worked backbreaking hours a day on the farm). I think it was more taken for granted that everyone short of obvious freeloaders was doing their part, and that all parts were needed.
Thank you for your thoughts! A few things: if God is truly calling each person to their profession than that would, almost by definition, be optimal for that person, but it doesn’t follow that the person’s job is most important for the community. In fact, there are often urgent jobs which can only be performed by certain people. In recognizing that (the urgency) you’re essentially acknowledging that some work is more important than others.
The kind of small communities you describe are probably different in many ways but one difference (I’d imagine) is that people tend to perform different jobs. People must be flexible and poly-skilled. That’s probably the main reason we have moved away from this social form: letting each person specialize allows the creation of more wealth overall (along with the use of technology) but the downside is that we pay specialists to fix cars and pipes and watch kids and cut grass and grow food. Small communities feature people who perform multiple jobs. If they don’t no one will. That lack of specialization should also lessen their identification with their role. In this kind of community people are known as individuals first and foremost, with all of their quirks and opinions and skills and loves.
“I assure you: people absolutely care what everyone else thinks of them.” Sure! Even more so, because that’s the nature of small and close-knit groups. I’ve also lived in such groups during periods of my life. Do they care what people think of the job they’re performing at any particular moment though? Would they bristle at the implication that someone else might be doing something more important to the group at that moment? If a roof needs to be repaired urgently and only a few people have the skills and someone says ‘this is the most important job’ would that hurt or offend people?
As I said, in my experience everyone understands that EVERYONE is necessary for a community like that to flourish. People aren’t valued by the roles they assume. Theyre valued for all of their skills and idiosyncrasies. They’re known and valued as individuals, and that includes recognizing that some jobs have special value. Just as everyone recognizes that some people are bigger and prettier and meaner than others everyone knows that some jobs are more valuable. I think that claiming one’s work is more important than others could ruffle feathers-not because of its truth or falsehood but because that kind of boasting at the expense of others is unseemly… like claiming that one is much prettier than another. Nevertheless, everyone knows that there is inequality across all of these axes and, if one is asked, saying that you find one person to be prettier than another wouldn’t be seen as inappropriate in certain contexts. It seems that you’re saying that everyone knows that some jobs are more valuable than others but no one should ever acknowledge that fact.
In such communities (which are anyways rare and not the kind of arrangement I was addressing) everyone is known, everyone is busy, everyone is valued… and yet some jobs are still more vital than others.
Now: what about the modern state of living in which most people reside? Outside of the kind of community you’re describing do you estimate that it would still damage the social fabric to be told by a stranger that motherhood is the most important job there is? In a world of thousands of strangers, would knowing that one of them especially valued motherhood really affect society or a person’s self-image, such that no one should ever make such statements? That is the basic question in my opinion.
—————————————-
Your counterexample just seems to support my claim though. The barren woman is hurt because she feels a void in her life and every reminder of that wounds her. She’s not upset because people are valuing work unequally-she’s hurt because people are reminding her of what she doesn’t has and because SHE feels that motherhood is especially important. Someone could make a perfectly subjective and unassailable claim, like ‘raising children was the most satisfying thing I ever did’ and it might have the same effect. Obviously one should avoid such statements but the source of her hurt is not the idea that people value certain jobs more than others or that she’s not doing an equally important task as others; it’s her own insecurity and sense of loss. That is purely psychological insecurity. it’s rubbing salt in a wound and reminding the listener of a lack, and the wound/lack is not (primarily) the feeling of being equally valued in their work. It’s the missing element of a child’s love. If that woman had kids and someone said ‘I think doctors are the most important workers in our society’ (and she wasn’t a doctor) would she really care? I doubt it. I honestly have trouble imagining a similar scenario for working men. This especially seems to be an issue for women and especially seems to arise around motherhood and that indicates (to me) that it’s not about status or recognition of strict professional value. It’s more sentimental and deeper than that, tied to the very biological essence and purpose of womanhood, stretching back millions of years to a time before humans even existed.
The reply:
First off, no, my primary claim is that the vocation God calls each person to is the most meaningful and important thing they could possibly do with their life, whether or not that involves raising children. My secondary opinion that we should shut our mouths and not judge the way God calls others is downstream of that first opinion and entirely dependent on it.
Second off, ok, I think a large part of our disagreement is that you and I clearly have vastly different life experiences. I grew up on the same family farm my great-greats built when they came over from Germany, with my parents as well as some extended family. Even since leaving the family farm, I’ve still lived my whole life in either very small towns (<2k people) or in small cities with the sort of neighborhoods where you regularly bump into friends and acquaintances. I continue to live less than 30 minutes by car from the farm. On any given day I can go for a walk or run errands and bump into my sister, or a friend from church, or my sister’s friend (whom I also know, because of course I do) or (this literally happened on Tuesday) my son’s best friend’s dad — whom I’ve known since we were in preschool together — oh and his dad went to high school with my mom.
I assure you: people absolutely care what everyone else thinks of them. Oh, do they care. You can call it ridiculous all you like, but it is what it is. Certainly one can take it to extremes, probably caused by mental health problems (on both ends of the spectrum! a profound lack of concern about what anyone else thinks of you can also be a sign of a problem). Mostly, though, I think “caring deeply what folks think of you” is just a basic human drive. We have to live with each other for decades, and “position in the community” is important.
In contexts like this, I have known otherwise perfectly mentally stable women who burst into tears when the however-many-th “just one church lady giving an opinion just one time” asks when she’s having children “because it’s the most important thing a woman can do” and she’s been trying to conceive for however many years and no children are forthcoming and she feels devalued in the eyes of the however-many-th “just one person” she is going to spend the next 40 years of her life sitting a pew over from.
And finally, yes, of course most traditional communities revolve around raising children, but the healthy ones were (and are!) pretty good at recognizing that a lot of people support that goal beyond the physical parents, and are good at valuing those contributions. Just for an easy example, I am absolutely positive that my parish community values our celibate priest just as much as we value parents, and that similar parish communities have been highly valuing celibate monks and nuns for approximately the last two millennia. As another example, the “maiden aunt” or “bachelor uncle” who never married but instead stayed on working the family farm was a fixture of years gone by. I grew up with stories of my mom’s “uncle Raymond” (her father’s mother’s brother) who did exactly this and was very much valued.
I actually think the weird modern quirk (in more conservative circles at least) is how we’re more likely to ignore the value of the Uncle Raymonds of the world because we’re so busy focusing on the nuclear family. I’m sure mean church ladies sniping cattily about someone never getting married existed then as now, but I don’t think anyone would ever have had a conversation over pints at the pub or whatever about how people like Raymond weren’t really doing the most important work (that would have been bold—he worked backbreaking hours a day on the farm). I think it was more taken for granted that everyone short of obvious freeloaders was doing their part, and that all parts were needed.
My replies:
Thank you for your thoughts! A few things: if God is truly calling each person to their profession than that would, almost by definition, be optimal for that person, but it doesn’t follow that the person’s job is most important for the community. In fact, there are often urgent jobs which can only be performed by certain people. In recognizing that (the urgency) you’re essentially acknowledging that some work is more important than others.
The kind of small communities you describe are probably different in many ways but one difference (I’d imagine) is that people tend to perform different jobs. People must be flexible and poly-skilled. That’s probably the main reason we have moved away from this social form: letting each person specialize allows the creation of more wealth overall (along with the use of technology) but the downside is that we pay specialists to fix cars and pipes and watch kids and cut grass and grow food. Small communities feature people who perform multiple jobs. If they don’t no one will. That lack of specialization should also lessen their identification with their role. In this kind of community people are known as individuals first and foremost, with all of their quirks and opinions and skills and loves.
“I assure you: people absolutely care what everyone else thinks of them.” Sure! Even more so, because that’s the nature of small and close-knit groups. I’ve also lived in such groups during periods of my life. Do they care what people think of the job they’re performing at any particular moment though? Would they bristle at the implication that someone else might be doing something more important to the group at that moment? If a roof needs to be repaired urgently and only a few people have the skills and someone says ‘this is the most important job’ would that hurt or offend people?
As I said, in my experience everyone understands that EVERYONE is necessary for a community like that to flourish. People aren’t valued by the roles they assume. Theyre valued for all of their skills and idiosyncrasies. They’re known and valued as individuals, and that includes recognizing that some jobs have special value. Just as everyone recognizes that some people are bigger and prettier and meaner than others everyone knows that some jobs are more valuable. I think that claiming one’s work is more important than others could ruffle feathers-not because of its truth or falsehood but because that kind of boasting at the expense of others is unseemly… like claiming that one is much prettier than another. Nevertheless, everyone knows that there is inequality across all of these axes and, if one is asked, saying that you find one person to be prettier than another wouldn’t be seen as inappropriate in certain contexts. It seems that you’re saying that everyone knows that some jobs are more valuable than others but no one should ever acknowledge that fact.
In such communities (which are anyways rare and not the kind of arrangement I was addressing) everyone is known, everyone is busy, everyone is valued… and yet some jobs are still more vital than others.
Now: what about the modern state of living in which most people reside? Outside of the kind of community you’re describing do you estimate that it would still damage the social fabric to be told by a stranger that motherhood is the most important job there is? In a world of thousands of strangers, would knowing that one of them especially valued motherhood really affect society or a person’s self-image, such that no one should ever make such statements? That is the basic question in my opinion.
—————————————-
Your counterexample just seems to support my claim though. The barren woman is hurt because she feels a void in her life and every reminder of that wounds her. She’s not upset because people are valuing work unequally-she’s hurt because people are reminding her of what she doesn’t has and because SHE feels that motherhood is especially important. Someone could make a perfectly subjective and unassailable claim, like ‘raising children was the most satisfying thing I ever did’ and it might have the same effect. Obviously one should avoid such statements but the source of her hurt is not the idea that people value certain jobs more than others or that she’s not doing an equally important task as others; it’s her own insecurity and sense of loss. That is purely psychological insecurity. it’s rubbing salt in a wound and reminding the listener of a lack, and the wound/lack is not (primarily) the feeling of being equally valued in their work. It’s the missing element of a child’s love. If that woman had kids and someone said ‘I think doctors are the most important workers in our society’ (and she wasn’t a doctor) would she really care? I doubt it. I honestly have trouble imagining a similar scenario for working men. This especially seems to be an issue for women and especially seems to arise around motherhood and that indicates (to me) that it’s not about status or recognition of strict professional value. It’s more sentimental and deeper than that, tied to the very biological essence and purpose of womanhood, stretching back millions of years to a time before humans even existed.